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[Music]

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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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from Australia for science and reason

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hello and welcome to the skeptics urn

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episode number 93 for the 30th of July

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2010 Richardson is here with you from my

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little studio in Sydney Australia on

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this week's show we have an interview

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from Tam 8 none other than Tim Farley

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from what's the harm net what's the harm

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you might say what's the harm

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find out soon with our interview that's

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followed by dr. Rachel and myself on our

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regular spot on radio 2 GB in Sydney and

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MTR in Melbourne where we speak to our

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good friend Glen wheeler this time we

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had a phone call from someone interested

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in magnetic therapy and reflex ecology

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and that's followed by dr. Reggie report

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where she looks at some of the more

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wacky and zany goings-on with those

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crazy Bunch

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at the Australian anti vaccination

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Network that's wish it was wacky and I

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wish it was alien I wish it was crazy

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it's rather more serious than that

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but Rachel we'll have a good roundup for

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us now don't forget all you students out

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there who have registered for the

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amazing meeting Australia in November

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you have until the end of August to

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write to the Australian skeptics and put

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your case for one of our special rebate

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offers more information at WWF to calm a

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you we have up to 10 rebates so students

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who have registered why not check it out

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also if you're going to be a Dragon Con

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in Atlanta this year you can meet myself

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dr. Rey Chi and our good friend reporter

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Kylie Sturgis we're all going to be

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there working very hard doing a live

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skeptic zone and other talks you know

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it's not cheap getting to America folks

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I've got to level with you if you want

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to help us so you feel a certain love in

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your heart for what we do you can always

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subscribe to the skeptic zone for only

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$1 a week or if you're feeling very

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generous donate it all helps us a great

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deal keep the show on the air and helps

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us do things like travel all the way to

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Atlanta from Sydney and Perth in Kylie's

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case the drag

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so well I think that's all I have to say

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for the moment sit down grab that lovely

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gin and tonic or a vodka martini I

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hadn't quad come at Heaney at the

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amazing meeting it was a special little

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get-together for some of the speakers oh

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all that was nice

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oh yeah hmm might have one now hmm I'll

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do that and you enjoy the skeptics

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[Music]

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I'm dr. Ricci and this week I bring you

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another interview from our recent trip

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to Tam 8 in Las Vegas this week I

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featured Tim Farley who runs the website

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called BOTS the harm net where Tim

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collects stories of how alternative

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medicines and studio scientific beliefs

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can actually harm people over the last

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two and a bit years

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Tim's website has become an essential

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source of information for skeptics and

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media alike reporting on the dangers of

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pseudo-scientific beliefs which now also

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features a section on how believing the

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moon landings never happened can harm

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you and if you follow your GPS without

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looking at the road you can also come to

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harm I'm sure many listeners would have

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come across people saying well what's

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the harm in homeopathy what's the harm

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in believing in ghosts

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well here's Tim Farley to tell us

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exactly what is the harm

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now Here I am

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in the green room at Tam 8 at the South

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Pointe casino in Las Vegas and I'm with

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Tim Farley hi Tim hi from what's the

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harm at that's right is that your

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surname now that people say Tim Farley

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what's the harm that yeah well people

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always come up to me and try to make

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some sort of a joke about it you know

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let's go to lunch what's the harm

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oh really it's it's getting a little

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little

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people say I should have another beer

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what's the harm in that right exactly

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yeah all that kind of stuff uh you know

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I'm just happy people actually noticed

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the sight so well you had a birthday

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recently didn't you I know it was a

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little while ago but wasn't it the

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second birthday of yeah yeah in February

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was the second anniversary yeah yeah so

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it's about two and a half years old now

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so tell us a little bit about the

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history of the website so first of all

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just can you explain to our listeners

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for those who don't know what is what's

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the harm dot there yeah it's a it's a

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collection of stories it's collection of

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anecdotes basically about people who

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have been hurt by belief in

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pseudoscience paranormal all the sorts

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of things that skeptics focus on and I

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noticed that there was a trend where

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people had typically if you write an

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article like somebody writes a feature

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story about acupuncture they would want

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to tell a story so they would find

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somebody that was either hurt or helped

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by acupuncture depending on what the

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their story is and they would tell that

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person's story but each article would

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have one person's story and the next

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article would have another person story

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and I thought well it would be really

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great if somebody would collect all

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these things in one place and then you

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could see you know and it's not

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scientific and it's and they are just

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anecdotes but it kind of gives you an

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idea that these aren't just one-off

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stories they aren't just the one story

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that you read in the magazine that there

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literally are hundreds of stories where

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people have gotten hurt by homeopathy or

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belief in the paranormal or acupuncture

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or whatever it is so that once I had

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that idea it was pretty straightforward

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just to build you know do some basically

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it's just googling looking in old

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newspapers and things like that to find

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the stories and document them

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and collect it up on the site mmm so

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you've got quite a lot of categories you

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mentioned homeopathy you mentioned

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paranormal what are some other

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categories that you've got on the side

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uh yeah I've got a whole ton of altmed

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stuff anything that I can find direct

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harm for my criteria on the site is that

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I have to find somebody who's been

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demonstrably harmed and you in some way

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admits it you know i-i've tried to avoid

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those types of stories where oh look

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this person has spent hundreds of

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thousands of dollars on homeopathy and

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they don't realize they've wasted this

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much money it's like well you know I

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spent a lot of money on DVDs in my life

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and some people would probably call that

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a waste of money too but I'm happy with

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it so I look for people that have really

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been hurt and would admit to have being

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having been hurt and then the stories

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have to be documented they have to there

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has to be a newspaper article or a paper

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or something that I can link to so that

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it's not just somebody sending me an

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email that they're real stories that we

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can point to in the paper so you

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mentioned paranormal right give us some

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of the examples of people being hurt by

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paranormal yeah I've got like a belief

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in ghosts page there's a couple couple

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different variations on that one is

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people trying to basically emulate the

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ghost hunters that they see on TV and

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they go out and go into abandoned

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buildings and either get themselves hurt

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because the buildings haven't been

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maintained or get arrested for

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trespassing yeah there was a girl and I

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think Ohio who got shot by a guy who

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thought he was Treach she was

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trespassing on his property

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sawed dead yeah I know she was severely

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injured when a long time in the hospital

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and had to have surgeries and things

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like that because she thought it was a

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haunted house that nobody lived in and

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she wanted to explore it and it was

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someone lived there and it was tired of

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people coming on his property Wow

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a lot of crazy stuff and there's a

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famous story in upstate New York about a

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woman who was trying to sell her house

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and it turned out that she'd had kind of

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not really promoted it but she had

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publicized the fact that her she thought

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her house was haunted

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and I don't know if she had tours or

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what it was but she made it known that

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her

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house was haunted and then she was

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trying to sell it and she didn't

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disclose this fact to the guy who was

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trying to buy the house and the guy

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found out and it turned out his wife was

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superstitious and didn't want to buy

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didn't want to live in a haunted house

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and so he tried to get out of the

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contract and there was actually a whole

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lawsuit and a major court ruling about

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whether or not you have to disclose to

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the buyer under US real estate law that

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your house is haunted and do you have to

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it seemed to hinge on the fact that she

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had actually publicized it the ruling

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because she had publicized it that made

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it something that she had to disclose

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but if she just thought it was if as I

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read the ruling now I'm not a lawyer so

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I may be misinterpreting it but it's

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it's a it's a well-known court ruling in

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US law there been a couple of other

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cases like that where people were

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frightened about stuff there was a

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another case with UFO belief where

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people went out to it was kind of a sad

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case because the people were obviously a

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little bit crazy and they went out and

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thought they were gonna meet the UFO out

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in a wilderness area in like the

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northern United States in the dead of

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winter and they were sitting in this car

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convinced that this UFO was going to

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come down and one of them ended up

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basically freezing to death what yeah

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absolutely

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how long did they sit in the car do you

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know like hours and hours like like half

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a day something like that go yeah

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but surely at that at some point before

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you face the death you would go maybe I

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should go yeah that's why I say it's

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pretty clear that there was probably

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some mental illness involved in that

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case which is always always makes it a

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lot Saturn hmm

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well homeopathy is a big sort of topical

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issue at the moment especially because

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of what's happening in the UK you know

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with the National Health Service

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recommending that there's no more

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government funding for that how many

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what's the harms have you got for

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homeopathy I think I've got like 400 and

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something 437 or something like that

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[Music]

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case is a lot of them from Australia and

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from the UK yeah where people have been

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advised to do something by their

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homeopathy that was was not a good idea

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ended up dying of something that could

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have been could have been easily cured

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so how much work do you have to do

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yourself now these days Tim because I

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imagine you get flooded with emails

274
00:10:53,490 --> 00:10:51,670
don't you when something happens yeah

275
00:10:55,590 --> 00:10:53,500
when there's a famous case like the

276
00:10:57,570 --> 00:10:55,600
current case with penny Dingle in

277
00:11:00,510 --> 00:10:57,580
Australia yeah has gotten a lot of

278
00:11:04,170 --> 00:11:00,520
coverage so I like to me emails a week

279
00:11:05,970 --> 00:11:04,180
about that one and but other ones you

280
00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:05,980
know don't necessarily get us much

281
00:11:09,300 --> 00:11:07,930
coverage so maybe I'll get one email on

282
00:11:11,250 --> 00:11:09,310
it but yeah it's gotten where the site

283
00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:11,260
is well-known enough that people see

284
00:11:14,910 --> 00:11:13,450
cases and send them to me yeah so that's

285
00:11:17,130 --> 00:11:14,920
good it saves me a lot of trouble

286
00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:17,140
sometimes and I get some fairly weird

287
00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:19,450
ones from other countries like every

288
00:11:22,470 --> 00:11:20,770
once in a while I'll get one that's not

289
00:11:24,660 --> 00:11:22,480
available in the English language press

290
00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:24,670
at all I've got one sitting ready to go

291
00:11:28,860 --> 00:11:27,490
up on the site now that's from Sweden or

292
00:11:30,150 --> 00:11:28,870
somewhere and there's no way I would

293
00:11:31,950 --> 00:11:30,160
have found it on my own because I don't

294
00:11:34,470 --> 00:11:31,960
read that language but so on in Sweden

295
00:11:37,890 --> 00:11:34,480
who does speak English emailed me the

296
00:11:39,540 --> 00:11:37,900
links to the stories and so now I have

297
00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:39,550
the case do you know what what's that

298
00:11:47,310 --> 00:11:45,250
one about from the site the Google

299
00:11:49,860 --> 00:11:47,320
Translate had the good had the info

300
00:11:51,150 --> 00:11:49,870
correct for it you know I don't you put

301
00:11:53,190 --> 00:11:51,160
me on the spot I don't remember the

302
00:11:55,050 --> 00:11:53,200
exact details yeah but there was another

303
00:11:56,310 --> 00:11:55,060
one that I got from Slovenia was the

304
00:11:58,110 --> 00:11:56,320
same sort of thing where someone in

305
00:12:00,030 --> 00:11:58,120
Slovenia sent it to me and it was

306
00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:00,040
actually the very first time that a

307
00:12:05,010 --> 00:12:02,050
medical doctor had been struck off in

308
00:12:08,220 --> 00:12:05,020
Slovenia under there aren't rules it was

309
00:12:09,810 --> 00:12:08,230
an MD who also practiced homeopathy and

310
00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:09,820
she did the classic thing where she

311
00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:11,890
recommended a guy who was going to

312
00:12:17,340 --> 00:12:15,010
travel to Africa use homeopathic malaria

313
00:12:18,750 --> 00:12:17,350
medicine which was a big deal in England

314
00:12:20,550 --> 00:12:18,760
a couple years ago when they found out

315
00:12:22,710 --> 00:12:20,560
homey paths were advising that this

316
00:12:24,570 --> 00:12:22,720
[\h__\h] thing was behind that right then

317
00:12:27,660 --> 00:12:24,580
he was just down there name-dropping and

318
00:12:30,510 --> 00:12:27,670
this was a similar case in Slovenia and

319
00:12:32,460 --> 00:12:30,520
the guy of course caught malaria then he

320
00:12:35,910 --> 00:12:32,470
came back and she tried to tweet treat

321
00:12:38,190 --> 00:12:35,920
him with homeopathy after the fact after

322
00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:38,200
he already had malaria and he ended up

323
00:12:41,610 --> 00:12:38,650
dead

324
00:12:43,500 --> 00:12:41,620
inside yeah she in fact it was even a

325
00:12:45,300 --> 00:12:43,510
point where at one point the ambulance

326
00:12:47,100 --> 00:12:45,310
had been called to come pick him up and

327
00:12:49,470 --> 00:12:47,110
she called the ambulance and told them

328
00:12:51,420 --> 00:12:49,480
to go back right so it was just such a

329
00:12:54,490 --> 00:12:51,430
clear-cut case where she was completely

330
00:12:57,370 --> 00:12:54,500
misguided and yet she was an MD

331
00:12:59,110 --> 00:12:57,380
and she got completely struck off but

332
00:13:00,910 --> 00:12:59,120
yeah there's no way I would have found

333
00:13:02,530 --> 00:13:00,920
that case on my own because it doesn't

334
00:13:04,560 --> 00:13:02,540
appear in the English language press at

335
00:13:06,820 --> 00:13:04,570
all just in the Slovenian press so

336
00:13:09,100 --> 00:13:06,830
fortunately someone in Slovenia noticed

337
00:13:10,750 --> 00:13:09,110
the story and sent me the right links so

338
00:13:12,430 --> 00:13:10,760
are there any particular stories that

339
00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:12,440
stand out to you out of all the ones

340
00:13:17,110 --> 00:13:13,850
you've got that you would think they're

341
00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:17,120
the most crazy or a bizarre or absurd

342
00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:20,210
ways of dying from the UFO one is

343
00:13:23,980 --> 00:13:21,890
probably one of the weirdest ones the

344
00:13:26,230 --> 00:13:23,990
one that always comes up when people ask

345
00:13:28,090 --> 00:13:26,240
me that question is my function why

346
00:13:29,980 --> 00:13:28,100
story from Malaysia have you heard that

347
00:13:32,410 --> 00:13:29,990
one I think the sigh yeah there were two

348
00:13:33,970 --> 00:13:32,420
families in Malaysia that both believed

349
00:13:36,630 --> 00:13:33,980
in Fung Shui and they weren't really

350
00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:36,640
fond of each other and they look across

351
00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:39,890
yeah you can see where this is going and

352
00:13:44,290 --> 00:13:41,810
there's something in function a function

353
00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:44,300
way is the Asian belief that you know

354
00:13:47,590 --> 00:13:46,130
organizing your environment arranging

355
00:13:50,620 --> 00:13:47,600
your furniture painting your house a

356
00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:50,630
different colour etc etc can help you

357
00:13:56,020 --> 00:13:52,850
balance the the chi or whatever in your

358
00:13:57,970 --> 00:13:56,030
life and one of the things that some

359
00:13:59,050 --> 00:13:57,980
believers in it do is they put a mirror

360
00:14:00,970 --> 00:13:59,060
on the outside of their house is

361
00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:00,980
supposed to reflect bad luck away from

362
00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:02,810
their house well one of these families

363
00:14:05,890 --> 00:14:04,250
put the mirror on the outside of their

364
00:14:08,140 --> 00:14:05,900
house except it was pointed at the other

365
00:14:10,870 --> 00:14:08,150
house right so it was reflecting bad

366
00:14:12,730 --> 00:14:10,880
luck in the other people put their

367
00:14:14,530 --> 00:14:12,740
mirror up so the two mirrors were

368
00:14:17,740 --> 00:14:14,540
reflecting bad luck at each other and

369
00:14:19,690 --> 00:14:17,750
that plus the animosity between the two

370
00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:19,700
families escalated it literally became a

371
00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:21,770
brawl in the street but two more two

372
00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:25,610
houses and a guy got stabbed to death in

373
00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:28,490
that bra 26 year old guard guy remember

374
00:14:32,740 --> 00:14:30,890
one of the families Wow ridiculous and

375
00:14:34,060 --> 00:14:32,750
of course sometimes I got complaints

376
00:14:35,770 --> 00:14:34,070
because people say well you know those

377
00:14:37,210 --> 00:14:35,780
two families didn't like each other and

378
00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:37,220
obviously one of them was willing to use

379
00:14:41,350 --> 00:14:39,410
a knife and someone who's willing to use

380
00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:41,360
violence might have done it anyway and I

381
00:14:47,050 --> 00:14:45,050
said yes but the situation got to where

382
00:14:49,180 --> 00:14:47,060
it was because of the belief in Fung

383
00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:49,190
Shui no that's one of the principles of

384
00:14:54,820 --> 00:14:50,570
the site is that you know there has to

385
00:14:57,010 --> 00:14:54,830
it the the belief isn't always the the

386
00:14:59,380 --> 00:14:57,020
full cause yeah you know like you could

387
00:15:01,180 --> 00:14:59,390
say if someone uses homeopathy to treat

388
00:15:02,710 --> 00:15:01,190
their cancer and they die of cancer you

389
00:15:04,900 --> 00:15:02,720
say well homeopathy didn't kill them

390
00:15:06,530 --> 00:15:04,910
cancer has to kill them Yeah right but

391
00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:06,540
of course you know they

392
00:15:10,370 --> 00:15:08,130
could have been cured potentially

393
00:15:12,980 --> 00:15:10,380
depending on what the cancer was and how

394
00:15:15,590 --> 00:15:12,990
far along they were with other medicine

395
00:15:18,020 --> 00:15:15,600
so so I used that kind of in in law I

396
00:15:19,580 --> 00:15:18,030
think it's called proximate cause where

397
00:15:21,170 --> 00:15:19,590
if something makes something a little

398
00:15:23,570 --> 00:15:21,180
bit more likely it's considered a cause

399
00:15:25,370 --> 00:15:23,580
of the crime or whatever it is so so

400
00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:25,380
that's that's kind of the standard that

401
00:15:29,420 --> 00:15:27,690
I use I don't know if I'm adhering to it

402
00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:29,430
at the way a court would but at least

403
00:15:34,730 --> 00:15:31,770
it's the rule of thumb that I use so do

404
00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:34,740
you get angry emails from people about I

405
00:15:38,180 --> 00:15:36,690
do sometimes what are the what other

406
00:15:40,130 --> 00:15:38,190
stuff do they complain about about

407
00:15:42,890 --> 00:15:40,140
what's them the most common one I get

408
00:15:45,860 --> 00:15:42,900
now is the the standard alternative

409
00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:45,870
medicine canard about well conventional

410
00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:49,050
medicine kills 40,000 people our study

411
00:15:54,230 --> 00:15:50,970
by UPS killed these many people yeah

412
00:15:56,570 --> 00:15:54,240
right so you get all those and I and I

413
00:15:58,790 --> 00:15:56,580
always have to reply with the standard

414
00:16:01,810 --> 00:15:58,800
answer which is risk versus benefit

415
00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:01,820
right there's an obvious demonstrable

416
00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:04,650
scientifically demonstrated benefit to

417
00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:06,330
conventional medicine if I break my leg

418
00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:09,330
I can go to a hospital and they can fix

419
00:16:15,740 --> 00:16:14,010
it you know with a 99.9999% probability

420
00:16:18,860 --> 00:16:15,750
that I'll be fine after a few months

421
00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:18,870
yeah you know alternative medicine

422
00:16:23,570 --> 00:16:20,610
doesn't have any of that right and you

423
00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:23,580
know there's no demonstrable benefit so

424
00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:26,490
why take the risk so how has the site

425
00:16:31,460 --> 00:16:29,370
grown in the in the tuna bees Tim it's

426
00:16:33,530 --> 00:16:31,470
grown a lot I've added I think I started

427
00:16:35,330 --> 00:16:33,540
with probably I don't know 30 or 40

428
00:16:38,180 --> 00:16:35,340
categories and there's I think 78

429
00:16:40,490 --> 00:16:38,190
categories now 78 yeah Wow

430
00:16:42,140 --> 00:16:40,500
some of them are admittedly weaker than

431
00:16:44,270 --> 00:16:42,150
others I have a couple that are on there

432
00:16:47,990 --> 00:16:44,280
kind of for comedic value like I have a

433
00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:48,000
moon hoax believers category mostly so

434
00:16:59,360 --> 00:16:49,650
that I can link to that famous video

435
00:17:01,700 --> 00:16:59,370
where Buzz Aldrin punches the guy yeah

436
00:17:03,500 --> 00:17:01,710
you know just on that but I'm glad you

437
00:17:05,360 --> 00:17:03,510
brought that up perfect we are at 10

438
00:17:07,790 --> 00:17:05,370
that's right I gave a great talk today

439
00:17:09,410 --> 00:17:07,800
but there is a moon hoax Yeah right he

440
00:17:11,030 --> 00:17:09,420
was just out in the hallway just before

441
00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:11,040
we came in here yeah yeah and he's been

442
00:17:15,140 --> 00:17:13,530
harassing film all day so maybe if he

443
00:17:16,699 --> 00:17:15,150
keeps pushing it a bit further he'll get

444
00:17:18,649 --> 00:17:16,709
smacked out too yeah

445
00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:18,659
to the side I think Phil said something

446
00:17:21,710 --> 00:17:20,250
about that on Twitter today that people

447
00:17:25,970 --> 00:17:21,720
were telling him that he should pull a

448
00:17:27,590 --> 00:17:25,980
buzz on me but yeah it was interesting

449
00:17:29,539 --> 00:17:27,600
to see someone who was actually a

450
00:17:30,769 --> 00:17:29,549
believer showing up at a mime I'm not

451
00:17:32,419 --> 00:17:30,779
aware of an instance where that's

452
00:17:33,710 --> 00:17:32,429
happened before yeah unless they're

453
00:17:35,570 --> 00:17:33,720
going for the million dollar challenge I

454
00:17:37,669 --> 00:17:35,580
suppose well yeah yeah that's the one

455
00:17:39,649 --> 00:17:37,679
exception we do get that sometimes at

456
00:17:41,899 --> 00:17:39,659
DragonCon because that obviously that

457
00:17:43,909 --> 00:17:41,909
convention is a little bit wider focus

458
00:17:45,740 --> 00:17:43,919
it's not just a skeptic convention so

459
00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:45,750
we've had many instances at DragonCon

460
00:17:49,940 --> 00:17:47,610
where we have the skeptic programming

461
00:17:52,549 --> 00:17:49,950
and some ghost believer will come in and

462
00:17:54,529 --> 00:17:52,559
last year we had yeah where the guy who

463
00:17:57,200 --> 00:17:54,539
started yelling at Joe Nickell yeah it

464
00:17:58,430 --> 00:17:57,210
was Tom yeah yeah yeah so is there

465
00:18:00,680 --> 00:17:58,440
another comedic one you were gonna

466
00:18:02,659 --> 00:18:00,690
mention or no the other one is GPS I

467
00:18:05,570 --> 00:18:02,669
have a whole bunch of story people

468
00:18:07,519 --> 00:18:05,580
trusting what the GPS says right laughs

469
00:18:10,010 --> 00:18:07,529
20 it says turn left now and they turn

470
00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:10,020
left and end up in the creek and so

471
00:18:13,669 --> 00:18:12,090
nobody gets killed on that because you

472
00:18:15,260 --> 00:18:13,679
know the site admittedly you know

473
00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:15,270
especially on certain pages on my site

474
00:18:19,850 --> 00:18:17,850
it's just an endless series of dead

475
00:18:22,250 --> 00:18:19,860
children you know and dead people right

476
00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:22,260
that didn't need to die so I think kind

477
00:18:25,399 --> 00:18:24,210
of like the faith healing page or

478
00:18:27,380 --> 00:18:25,409
something like that so I kind of felt

479
00:18:29,210 --> 00:18:27,390
like it needed a little comedic bang but

480
00:18:30,590 --> 00:18:29,220
people sometimes email me about the GPS

481
00:18:32,149 --> 00:18:30,600
page and they say well those people

482
00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:32,159
shouldn't be paying attention you know

483
00:18:38,779 --> 00:18:34,490
that's just stupidity that's not

484
00:18:40,340 --> 00:18:38,789
pseudoscience I say yeah well okay so I

485
00:18:42,710 --> 00:18:40,350
assume you've got the woman there that's

486
00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:42,720
doing at the moment Google because she

487
00:18:49,580 --> 00:18:46,890
followed good okay and her I also I have

488
00:18:51,919 --> 00:18:49,590
a kind of a closely related page that's

489
00:18:53,810 --> 00:18:51,929
called Internet misinformation oh yeah

490
00:18:55,549 --> 00:18:53,820
basically relying on something that you

491
00:18:59,299 --> 00:18:55,559
you put on the internet and I think she

492
00:19:01,190 --> 00:18:59,309
would probably qualify to be located and

493
00:19:03,409 --> 00:19:01,200
the Internet I died some of the cases

494
00:19:04,940 --> 00:19:03,419
are marked that way where you'll see

495
00:19:06,799 --> 00:19:04,950
them in multiple categories right

496
00:19:09,260 --> 00:19:06,809
because as you know believers in this

497
00:19:11,360 --> 00:19:09,270
stuff will often go you know once they

498
00:19:13,310 --> 00:19:11,370
believe in one thing they'll go to six

499
00:19:15,769 --> 00:19:13,320
other things you get somebody who's

500
00:19:16,190 --> 00:19:15,779
using homeopathy who also consulted a

501
00:19:18,889 --> 00:19:16,200
psychic

502
00:19:20,299 --> 00:19:18,899
yeah or something like that and then to

503
00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:20,309
get to the psychics house they went to

504
00:19:23,529 --> 00:19:21,690
Google Maps and they got run over on the

505
00:19:25,629 --> 00:19:23,539
way

506
00:19:27,279 --> 00:19:25,639
yeah you know what you should have it

507
00:19:29,979 --> 00:19:27,289
you should have an annual pride so like

508
00:19:32,019 --> 00:19:29,989
the biggest the biggest doozy of the

509
00:19:33,070 --> 00:19:32,029
year or something yeah that's one of the

510
00:19:35,619 --> 00:19:33,080
things I've been thinking about doing

511
00:19:37,599 --> 00:19:35,629
the site's overdue for as we record this

512
00:19:38,830 --> 00:19:37,609
the site's overdue for an update and one

513
00:19:41,769 --> 00:19:38,840
of the things I'm thinking about doing

514
00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:41,779
is kind of adding more types of content

515
00:19:45,369 --> 00:19:43,369
because though right now the site is all

516
00:19:47,799 --> 00:19:45,379
just very simple write-ups of the cases

517
00:19:50,169 --> 00:19:47,809
and mostly links to news stories but I

518
00:19:52,450 --> 00:19:50,179
don't get into any real details just a

519
00:19:54,310 --> 00:19:52,460
very short matter-of-fact which is good

520
00:19:56,739 --> 00:19:54,320
it keeps it simple and there's no

521
00:19:58,899 --> 00:19:56,749
emotion to it or you know not a lot of

522
00:20:01,330 --> 00:19:58,909
emotion - it's just the facts but I'd

523
00:20:02,710 --> 00:20:01,340
like to do more where you know more

524
00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:02,720
substantial post because some of the

525
00:20:09,460 --> 00:20:06,129
stories are quite involved like the the

526
00:20:11,139 --> 00:20:09,470
Gloria Sam story from Australia from a

527
00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:11,149
couple years ago this is just a whole

528
00:20:16,210 --> 00:20:14,690
long story to that that deserves to be

529
00:20:18,219 --> 00:20:16,220
told including the fact that her mother

530
00:20:20,169 --> 00:20:18,229
saw what conventional medicine right

531
00:20:22,330 --> 00:20:20,179
yeah right when they were in India when

532
00:20:26,139 --> 00:20:22,340
her daughter was suffering from eczema

533
00:20:27,369 --> 00:20:26,149
yeah yeah yep yeah yeah so that that's

534
00:20:28,269 --> 00:20:27,379
so that is that something you're

535
00:20:30,159 --> 00:20:28,279
planning on doing

536
00:20:33,460 --> 00:20:30,169
maybe he's expanding on the stories yeah

537
00:20:36,249 --> 00:20:33,470
yeah expand maybe pull certain stories

538
00:20:38,049 --> 00:20:36,259
out and do more more detailed posts on

539
00:20:39,849 --> 00:20:38,059
us because some of the stories you don't

540
00:20:41,619 --> 00:20:39,859
have a lot of details to work with so

541
00:20:43,889 --> 00:20:41,629
some of them wouldn't support it but

542
00:20:46,239 --> 00:20:43,899
some of them like that the Sam story

543
00:20:48,759 --> 00:20:46,249
certainly would there's lots and lots of

544
00:20:50,710 --> 00:20:48,769
documentation about what well also on

545
00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:50,720
just on that the Penelope Dingle story

546
00:20:55,269 --> 00:20:52,369
you know and that's still ongoing and I

547
00:20:56,649 --> 00:20:55,279
mean I don't know if you know about this

548
00:21:00,070 --> 00:20:56,659
but did you know that I've been

549
00:21:01,779 --> 00:21:00,080
following it a little bit yeah yeah but

550
00:21:04,539 --> 00:21:01,789
did you know that he wrote a blog post

551
00:21:07,659 --> 00:21:04,549
about it or recently for the inquest was

552
00:21:10,060 --> 00:21:07,669
finished which has subsequently been

553
00:21:11,919 --> 00:21:10,070
pulled because I think his lawyers got

554
00:21:14,049 --> 00:21:11,929
into his ear and said hum contempt a

555
00:21:16,330 --> 00:21:14,059
court right but he wrote a very long

556
00:21:18,690 --> 00:21:16,340
blog post which I think a few people

557
00:21:20,950 --> 00:21:18,700
have saved right screen captured rather

558
00:21:22,539 --> 00:21:20,960
where he was trying to exonerate himself

559
00:21:24,519 --> 00:21:22,549
and saying I had nothing to do with it

560
00:21:26,259 --> 00:21:24,529
it was the homeopath fault Wow

561
00:21:27,729 --> 00:21:26,269
so we'll keep you posted about that if

562
00:21:29,950 --> 00:21:27,739
you're interested yeah absolutely I'm

563
00:21:30,999 --> 00:21:29,960
always interested in updates that's one

564
00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:31,009
of the things that's kind of frustrating

565
00:21:36,009 --> 00:21:34,129
with some of these cases is you'll find

566
00:21:37,180 --> 00:21:36,019
the original story and a court

567
00:21:38,830 --> 00:21:37,190
proceeding will start

568
00:21:40,660 --> 00:21:38,840
and then sometimes it's hard because the

569
00:21:42,370 --> 00:21:40,670
press is really bad at following up on

570
00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:42,380
things things will get settled at a

571
00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:43,970
court or whatever and the press doesn't

572
00:21:47,110 --> 00:21:45,770
consider it a story at that point yeah

573
00:21:48,970 --> 00:21:47,120
so you never really find you know I

574
00:21:50,530 --> 00:21:48,980
don't have a lot of resources to go

575
00:21:51,340 --> 00:21:50,540
digging through court records and things

576
00:21:52,990 --> 00:21:51,350
like that

577
00:21:54,700 --> 00:21:53,000
to chase each one of these stories down

578
00:21:57,070 --> 00:21:54,710
so I have to kind of rely on what I can

579
00:21:58,690 --> 00:21:57,080
find in the press and sometimes it's

580
00:22:01,210 --> 00:21:58,700
quite frustrating because I know someone

581
00:22:03,610 --> 00:22:01,220
got sued but I know I don't know what

582
00:22:04,900 --> 00:22:03,620
the eventual resolution was yeah well

583
00:22:07,150 --> 00:22:04,910
that's where the listeners can help out

584
00:22:09,910 --> 00:22:07,160
- yeah yeah I can email you stuff yeah

585
00:22:14,020 --> 00:22:09,920
yeah yeah well give the website address

586
00:22:15,340 --> 00:22:14,030
again it's what's the harm net and you

587
00:22:17,530 --> 00:22:15,350
know it's just very straightforward

588
00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:17,540
simple website and it's kind of

589
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:21,050
categories on the front page I also do

590
00:22:25,110 --> 00:22:23,090
some stuff where I do one of my other

591
00:22:27,970 --> 00:22:25,120
projects is doing a skeptic history

592
00:22:29,830 --> 00:22:27,980
that's right on Twitter yeah I do it on

593
00:22:31,900 --> 00:22:29,840
Twitter and some of the other services

594
00:22:33,870 --> 00:22:31,910
like Facebook and French feed I have it

595
00:22:36,610 --> 00:22:33,880
all echoed in but basically every day

596
00:22:38,020 --> 00:22:36,620
early in the morning us time it's

597
00:22:42,430 --> 00:22:38,030
probably in the middle of the day your

598
00:22:44,020 --> 00:22:42,440
time I post a historical item so that

599
00:22:45,730 --> 00:22:44,030
relates to skepticism somebody's

600
00:22:47,290 --> 00:22:45,740
birthday or some famous event like

601
00:22:50,110 --> 00:22:47,300
yesterday as we're recording this

602
00:22:52,330 --> 00:22:50,120
yesterday was July 8th and that was the

603
00:22:54,750 --> 00:22:52,340
anniversary of the famous raid when the

604
00:22:58,090 --> 00:22:54,760
FBI in the United States raided

605
00:22:59,890 --> 00:22:58,100
Scientology because Scientologists were

606
00:23:02,980 --> 00:22:59,900
infiltrating to infiltrate the US

607
00:23:04,660 --> 00:23:02,990
government to find out things and to

608
00:23:06,250 --> 00:23:04,670
influence the decision about whether or

609
00:23:08,230 --> 00:23:06,260
not they would maintain their tax-free

610
00:23:09,850 --> 00:23:08,240
status and other stuff and they

611
00:23:12,100 --> 00:23:09,860
basically charged a bunch of famous

612
00:23:14,890 --> 00:23:12,110
Scientologists including l ron Hubbard's

613
00:23:17,890 --> 00:23:14,900
wife with conspiracy when did this

614
00:23:19,420 --> 00:23:17,900
happen in 1977 right so it's 33 years

615
00:23:21,130 --> 00:23:19,430
ago but it's important to remember these

616
00:23:23,380 --> 00:23:21,140
things because we you think you know a

617
00:23:25,270 --> 00:23:23,390
lot of folks are new to skepticism and

618
00:23:27,220 --> 00:23:25,280
maybe haven't read a lot of the older

619
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:27,230
books and aren't aware that there's this

620
00:23:31,990 --> 00:23:28,730
whole history of stuff that's gone on

621
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:32,000
and in some respects you see the same

622
00:23:35,620 --> 00:23:33,650
things repeating but sometimes it's

623
00:23:37,420 --> 00:23:35,630
different so it's important to know what

624
00:23:38,230 --> 00:23:37,430
went before so I do that thing every day

625
00:23:40,330 --> 00:23:38,240
on Twitter

626
00:23:43,530 --> 00:23:40,340
let's get Twitter name my twitter name

627
00:23:46,780 --> 00:23:43,540
is Krell Nick k Arielle and I K yep and

628
00:23:48,419 --> 00:23:46,790
and I also do a skeptic history thing on

629
00:23:50,820 --> 00:23:48,429
the skepticality right

630
00:23:52,409 --> 00:23:50,830
Podcast where I take the skeptic

631
00:23:54,690 --> 00:23:52,419
histories and I expand it out a little

632
00:23:57,149 --> 00:23:54,700
bit little yeah it's a little

633
00:23:59,640 --> 00:23:57,159
three-minute segment yeah in the podcast

634
00:24:01,169 --> 00:23:59,650
and so like whatever like if it come if

635
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:01,179
the podcast comes out on a Tuesday

636
00:24:04,890 --> 00:24:02,890
there'll be a couple of dates that are

637
00:24:07,350 --> 00:24:04,900
in the next week or so yeah coming up

638
00:24:09,180 --> 00:24:07,360
and I try to expand on it more because

639
00:24:12,269 --> 00:24:09,190
obviously with Twitter you can only just

640
00:24:14,370 --> 00:24:12,279
yeah you say something very quick yeah

641
00:24:16,740 --> 00:24:14,380
that's on skepticality that's one

642
00:24:20,070 --> 00:24:16,750
skeptic County yeah which is actually

643
00:24:23,750 --> 00:24:20,080
the first skeptical podcast isn't it

644
00:24:26,580 --> 00:24:23,760
yeah I think yeah basically the April of

645
00:24:29,010 --> 00:24:26,590
2005 right yeah that when they would

646
00:24:30,690 --> 00:24:29,020
skepticality and a skeptics guide in the

647
00:24:32,159 --> 00:24:30,700
universe I think started within a week

648
00:24:34,019 --> 00:24:32,169
or two of each other

649
00:24:36,269 --> 00:24:34,029
and hasn't the movement grown since then

650
00:24:38,549 --> 00:24:36,279
yeah it's amazing in that yeah it's hard

651
00:24:41,310 --> 00:24:38,559
to keep up there's so many podcasts I'd

652
00:24:43,380 --> 00:24:41,320
always done well I mean there's thirteen

653
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:43,390
hundred people here two at Tennessee and

654
00:24:46,769 --> 00:24:45,490
I know Randy was doing a talk earlier on

655
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:46,779
saying that next year they're hoping for

656
00:24:50,820 --> 00:24:49,450
twice that many so we'll be taking over

657
00:24:53,639 --> 00:24:50,830
the whole casino and we'll need a bigger

658
00:24:55,139 --> 00:24:53,649
hotel I'm gonna be a hotel all right Tim

659
00:24:56,220 --> 00:24:55,149
well thanks very much for joining us is

660
00:24:59,370 --> 00:24:56,230
there anything else you wanted to plug

661
00:25:00,779 --> 00:24:59,380
no no pretty much excellent thank you so

662
00:25:02,909 --> 00:25:00,789
listeners please head to what's the hunt

663
00:25:06,210 --> 00:25:02,919
net yeah and if you have any teapots

664
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:06,220
please email - yeah - abuse him if your

665
00:25:18,050 --> 00:25:16,190
and as you heard in that report from Tim

666
00:25:20,210 --> 00:25:18,060
Farley he was talking about the case of

667
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:20,220
Penelope Dingle who died from colorectal

668
00:25:26,300 --> 00:25:23,610
cancer in 2005 in Perth Western

669
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:26,310
Australia the findings of the coroner

670
00:25:30,410 --> 00:25:28,290
were passed down today and I just want

671
00:25:33,260 --> 00:25:30,420
to read you a short excerpt from a news

672
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:33,270
article about this case it's headlined

673
00:25:38,140 --> 00:25:35,850
poor decision-making poor advice led to

674
00:25:40,670 --> 00:25:38,150
death and it's from the West Australian

675
00:25:42,410 --> 00:25:40,680
homeopath franciene screen has come

676
00:25:44,540 --> 00:25:42,420
under heavy criticism today over the

677
00:25:46,670 --> 00:25:44,550
death of cancer victim Penelope Dingle

678
00:25:48,170 --> 00:25:46,680
with the state coroner finding she

679
00:25:50,810 --> 00:25:48,180
convinced the ailing woman she could

680
00:25:52,580 --> 00:25:50,820
cure her cancer handing down his

681
00:25:54,770 --> 00:25:52,590
findings into the death of mrs. Dingle

682
00:25:57,290 --> 00:25:54,780
wife of prominent Perth toxicologist

683
00:25:59,810 --> 00:25:57,300
Peter Dingle the coroner said mrs.

684
00:26:03,380 --> 00:25:59,820
Graham's claim was an outrageous thing

685
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:03,390
to do he said the homeopath was giving

686
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:05,250
dangerous advice in which he had no

687
00:26:10,490 --> 00:26:08,610
expertise specialists had urged mrs.

688
00:26:13,370 --> 00:26:10,500
Dingle to undergo surgery chemotherapy

689
00:26:15,050 --> 00:26:13,380
and radiotherapy but she opted for

690
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:15,060
alternative treatments including

691
00:26:20,150 --> 00:26:17,850
homeopathy the alternative remedies

692
00:26:22,700 --> 00:26:20,160
included a diet with no meat or fatty

693
00:26:25,340 --> 00:26:22,710
foods and no animal or dairy products

694
00:26:27,380 --> 00:26:25,350
he said that whilst miss gran and dr.

695
00:26:30,020 --> 00:26:27,390
Singhal had contributed to mrs. Dingles

696
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:30,030
decision-making ultimately the decisions

697
00:26:33,590 --> 00:26:31,530
were those of the deceased and the

698
00:26:36,230 --> 00:26:33,600
deceased paid a terrible price for poor

699
00:26:40,140 --> 00:26:36,240
decision-making once again another sad

700
00:26:54,740 --> 00:26:40,150
example of what's the harm in homeopathy

701
00:27:01,440 --> 00:26:58,380
hi I'm dr. ginger Campbell I started the

702
00:27:04,230 --> 00:27:01,450
brain science podcast in December 2006

703
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:04,240
with the tagline the show for everyone

704
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:06,490
who has a brain because you don't need a

705
00:27:13,710 --> 00:27:10,530
PhD to enjoy my podcast all you need is

706
00:27:16,590 --> 00:27:13,720
curiosity about how our brains make us

707
00:27:19,530 --> 00:27:16,600
who we are the brain science podcast is

708
00:27:21,990 --> 00:27:19,540
not a self-help show but understanding

709
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:22,000
how the brain works will give you useful

710
00:27:28,170 --> 00:27:25,090
insights into your own behavior and the

711
00:27:29,850 --> 00:27:28,180
behavior of others on the show I talk

712
00:27:33,510 --> 00:27:29,860
about the latest books about the brain

713
00:27:35,250 --> 00:27:33,520
and I interview leading scientists of

714
00:27:38,070 --> 00:27:35,260
course I would love to be discovered by

715
00:27:41,220 --> 00:27:38,080
NPR but until then you can find the

716
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:41,230
brain science podcast in iTunes and at

717
00:27:53,910 --> 00:27:44,690
brain science podcast calm

718
00:27:56,530 --> 00:27:53,920
[Music]

719
00:27:58,330 --> 00:27:56,540
product is shown to be wanting a COBOL

720
00:28:00,090 --> 00:27:58,340
Jax on the phone Jack wants to sing the

721
00:28:02,830 --> 00:28:00,100
praises of magnetic products hello jack

722
00:28:05,140 --> 00:28:02,840
hello can I go for how are you very good

723
00:28:08,500 --> 00:28:05,150
thanks thanks for the call yes thank you

724
00:28:10,630 --> 00:28:08,510
thanks regular call look um I've known

725
00:28:13,750 --> 00:28:10,640
about many products for over 30 years

726
00:28:16,060 --> 00:28:13,760
and I've done a lot of reading on it and

727
00:28:19,810 --> 00:28:16,070
and I can personally testify myself I

728
00:28:21,460 --> 00:28:19,820
had a very bad knee and I didn't know

729
00:28:23,470 --> 00:28:21,470
whether this magnetic strip was going to

730
00:28:25,660 --> 00:28:23,480
work so it's not like I was sort of

731
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:25,670
convincing myself mind over matter that

732
00:28:31,780 --> 00:28:29,450
will work and I put on my knee I reckon

733
00:28:34,690 --> 00:28:31,790
it took about a week and it my pain

734
00:28:37,750 --> 00:28:34,700
completely went I didn't take any any

735
00:28:39,310 --> 00:28:37,760
other tablets medication I did a lot of

736
00:28:41,770 --> 00:28:39,320
reading on that any products and

737
00:28:45,310 --> 00:28:41,780
fulfillment I understand the simple

738
00:28:49,270 --> 00:28:45,320
concept of it is your blood has negative

739
00:28:52,330 --> 00:28:49,280
and positive ions i RNs and when you

740
00:28:54,250 --> 00:28:52,340
apply a magnet to that it attracts those

741
00:28:56,740 --> 00:28:54,260
negatives and positives of positive ions

742
00:28:58,240 --> 00:28:56,750
and it increases your circulation

743
00:29:02,580 --> 00:28:58,250
you've been reading their website

744
00:29:04,990 --> 00:29:02,590
haven't you Jack nothing and basically

745
00:29:08,170 --> 00:29:05,000
everyone knows that when you have an

746
00:29:10,510 --> 00:29:08,180
increased circulation B through exercise

747
00:29:11,260 --> 00:29:10,520
or whatever when you increase your

748
00:29:14,380 --> 00:29:11,270
circulation

749
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:14,390
that's what does the fixing up Jack what

750
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:16,210
do you mean by increase your circulation

751
00:29:21,700 --> 00:29:19,250
well you just like when you exercise

752
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:21,710
your circulation your blood circulation

753
00:29:27,340 --> 00:29:25,010
increases because your body I you've

754
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:27,350
lost me a blood moons bathroom is faster

755
00:29:33,970 --> 00:29:31,010
it blood moves faster it's what your

756
00:29:35,980 --> 00:29:33,980
blood just circles you system is like if

757
00:29:38,410 --> 00:29:35,990
you don't exercise it becomes like Stagg

758
00:29:40,060 --> 00:29:38,420
stagnate water what's this got to do

759
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:40,070
with pain relief you've sort of gone off

760
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:42,170
track a little bit here we're pain

761
00:29:46,270 --> 00:29:43,970
relief if you if you increase the

762
00:29:47,890 --> 00:29:46,280
circulation in your body right pain

763
00:29:50,110 --> 00:29:47,900
relief like just say for instance with

764
00:29:53,140 --> 00:29:50,120
joint Irving is usually caused through

765
00:29:54,700 --> 00:29:53,150
inflammation that's right if you get

766
00:29:57,550 --> 00:29:54,710
information a certain part of the body

767
00:29:59,350 --> 00:29:57,560
the signs it gives you is pain

768
00:30:00,620 --> 00:29:59,360
yes but Chuck do you understand how the

769
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:00,630
inflammation process

770
00:30:06,410 --> 00:30:02,970
you can't flush it away if you increase

771
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:06,420
your blood flow because specific types

772
00:30:10,730 --> 00:30:08,370
of cells are actually recruited to the

773
00:30:12,590 --> 00:30:10,740
site of inflammation as long as that

774
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:12,600
inflammation remains and you can't kind

775
00:30:16,070 --> 00:30:14,610
of wash that out like you would I wash

776
00:30:18,620 --> 00:30:16,080
dishes or something it doesn't work like

777
00:30:21,530 --> 00:30:18,630
that right okay but but have you heard

778
00:30:28,070 --> 00:30:21,540
of reflexology yes yes it doesn't work

779
00:30:29,690 --> 00:30:28,080
either for reflexologist oh okay Jack

780
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:29,700
you're just the man we're looking for

781
00:30:33,710 --> 00:30:31,170
you can apply for the Australian

782
00:30:36,170 --> 00:30:33,720
skeptics $100,000 challenge if you can

783
00:30:38,900 --> 00:30:36,180
prove that reflexology work I can prove

784
00:30:45,170 --> 00:30:38,910
it was my wife's did I married my wife

785
00:30:46,970 --> 00:30:45,180
through reflexology what that doesn't

786
00:30:47,390 --> 00:30:46,980
prove it where did you read her face or

787
00:30:50,060 --> 00:30:47,400
something

788
00:30:52,550 --> 00:30:50,070
how did you do that happened about 12

789
00:30:56,030 --> 00:30:52,560
years ago we're all going to go out one

790
00:30:57,830 --> 00:30:56,040
night and I was with those four of us

791
00:31:00,950 --> 00:30:57,840
and she was she was there with a

792
00:31:03,020 --> 00:31:00,960
girlfriend and when we turned up to pick

793
00:31:05,630 --> 00:31:03,030
everyone up she was that she had a she

794
00:31:08,300 --> 00:31:05,640
had shock it's shocking scientists right

795
00:31:10,190 --> 00:31:08,310
and and one of the best results that I

796
00:31:12,710 --> 00:31:10,200
get with reflexology it was sinus

797
00:31:14,030 --> 00:31:12,720
problems all right and she it was that

798
00:31:16,580 --> 00:31:14,040
bad she wasn't going to go out and I

799
00:31:18,770 --> 00:31:16,590
said look this and this might sound a

800
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:18,780
bit weird but I can do some points

801
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:21,450
around your your toes all right your

802
00:31:25,460 --> 00:31:23,730
sinus points are in your toes and I'll

803
00:31:27,380 --> 00:31:25,470
be just about guarantee you'll

804
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:27,390
definitely get relief Jack why didn't

805
00:31:30,380 --> 00:31:29,010
you get her to go for a run and increase

806
00:31:32,660 --> 00:31:30,390
her circulation that would have worked

807
00:31:35,210 --> 00:31:32,670
too right that's what you just told us

808
00:31:37,790 --> 00:31:35,220
no no no because with reflexology it

809
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:37,800
works on your endings right and those

810
00:31:43,490 --> 00:31:41,010
nerve endings over the years they they

811
00:31:51,020 --> 00:31:43,500
get deposits of crystallization of

812
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:51,030
toxins no they don't time out both sides

813
00:31:55,550 --> 00:31:53,370
I'm gonna step in here as adjudicator

814
00:31:56,870 --> 00:31:55,560
I'm sorry jack I can prove it okay jack

815
00:31:59,750 --> 00:31:56,880
that's exactly what I want you to do

816
00:32:02,750 --> 00:31:59,760
because these guys have a standing

817
00:32:04,910 --> 00:32:02,760
$100,000 bounty on anybody that can

818
00:32:07,100 --> 00:32:04,920
prove things that they reckon don't work

819
00:32:09,890 --> 00:32:07,110
really work now you're saying that you

820
00:32:10,700 --> 00:32:09,900
can prove reflux reflux reflux ology

821
00:32:13,700 --> 00:32:10,710
actually works

822
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:13,710
the Australian skeptics have a $100,000

823
00:32:17,090 --> 00:32:14,850
to anybody who can demonstrate

824
00:32:19,279 --> 00:32:17,100
paranormal or supernatural powers under

825
00:32:21,619 --> 00:32:19,289
mutually agreed test conditions okay

826
00:32:23,119 --> 00:32:21,629
yeah here's your opportunity Jack I want

827
00:32:25,100 --> 00:32:23,129
to see you take the money Jack I'm on

828
00:32:26,779 --> 00:32:25,110
your side right I want to see you take

829
00:32:28,519 --> 00:32:26,789
the money so I want you to go to their

830
00:32:33,740 --> 00:32:28,529
website skeptics

831
00:32:35,539 --> 00:32:33,750
SK EPT icis.com do you write and check

832
00:32:38,060 --> 00:32:35,549
out their website you'll find this this

833
00:32:40,159 --> 00:32:38,070
$100,000 prize offer on there get in

834
00:32:41,389 --> 00:32:40,169
touch with the skeptics tell Richard get

835
00:32:42,499 --> 00:32:41,399
to send him an email and tell him that

836
00:32:43,940 --> 00:32:42,509
you want to find out all about it

837
00:32:46,610 --> 00:32:43,950
because you want to be $100,000 richer

838
00:32:47,869 --> 00:32:46,620
and Jack I just say good luck to you

839
00:32:49,789 --> 00:32:47,879
because if you believe in what you're

840
00:32:52,009 --> 00:32:49,799
talking about with reflexology and you

841
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:52,019
reckon you can prove that it works the

842
00:32:56,029 --> 00:32:54,090
money is your money take it taking it

843
00:32:58,399 --> 00:32:56,039
for sure that guaranteed you can get 10

844
00:33:00,379 --> 00:32:58,409
people 15 people that's got problem

845
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:00,389
sighs I think problem knee problems Jack

846
00:33:04,639 --> 00:33:02,970
- Jack go to the website and let us know

847
00:33:06,409 --> 00:33:04,649
how you go all right thank you you're on

848
00:33:08,539 --> 00:33:06,419
your boat there we go you're good could

849
00:33:10,190 --> 00:33:08,549
be $100,000 better off absolutely there

850
00:33:21,860 --> 00:33:10,200
again he may not be as well 10 minutes

851
00:33:24,980 --> 00:33:21,870
to 11 got a quick break now it's time

852
00:33:26,460 --> 00:33:24,990
for dr. Ratey reports with dr. Rachael

853
00:33:28,439 --> 00:33:26,470
Dunlop

854
00:33:31,209 --> 00:33:28,449
[Music]

855
00:33:34,419 --> 00:33:31,219
hello listeners and welcome to dr. Ratey

856
00:33:36,430 --> 00:33:34,429
reports at the risk of sounding like a

857
00:33:38,019 --> 00:33:36,440
broken record and I apologize for this

858
00:33:40,479 --> 00:33:38,029
but we're a little bit pleased in

859
00:33:42,489 --> 00:33:40,489
Australia at the moment I'm going to

860
00:33:44,199 --> 00:33:42,499
talk about some of the extensive media

861
00:33:46,479 --> 00:33:44,209
coverage that the anti-vaccination

862
00:33:49,060 --> 00:33:46,489
network have been getting in the past

863
00:33:51,189 --> 00:33:49,070
week since the H Triple C public

864
00:33:52,959 --> 00:33:51,199
statement was released now those of you

865
00:33:55,119 --> 00:33:52,969
who follow my blog would have seen a

866
00:33:58,959 --> 00:33:55,129
post I wrote last week about how the

867
00:34:00,939 --> 00:33:58,969
media tide has turned on the AVN and now

868
00:34:04,359 --> 00:34:00,949
they're being referred to routinely as

869
00:34:06,789 --> 00:34:04,369
anti-vaccination but why believe me I'm

870
00:34:08,470 --> 00:34:06,799
a skeptic I seek the evidence so this

871
00:34:10,029 --> 00:34:08,480
week I'm presenting you with some of

872
00:34:13,059 --> 00:34:10,039
that evidence that I've collected from

873
00:34:15,639 --> 00:34:13,069
across the media in Australia so you can

874
00:34:18,129 --> 00:34:15,649
see for yourself how things have changed

875
00:34:21,099 --> 00:34:18,139
for Merril so first up is steve

876
00:34:23,589 --> 00:34:21,109
lieberman from radio to ue responding to

877
00:34:25,990 --> 00:34:23,599
a front-page article on The Sydney

878
00:34:28,450 --> 00:34:26,000
Morning Herald about the avian harassing

879
00:34:30,430 --> 00:34:28,460
the McCaffrey family takes takes a lot

880
00:34:33,309 --> 00:34:30,440
to get me angry but let me tell you this

881
00:34:35,099 --> 00:34:33,319
morning I'm angry I cannot believe this

882
00:34:37,599 --> 00:34:35,109
story in today's Sydney Morning Herald

883
00:34:40,389 --> 00:34:37,609
about this group calling itself the

884
00:34:41,499 --> 00:34:40,399
Australian vaccination Network who do

885
00:34:43,990 --> 00:34:41,509
they think they are

886
00:34:46,869 --> 00:34:44,000
The Herald tells us that this group of

887
00:34:49,690 --> 00:34:46,879
North Coast wackos last year waged a

888
00:34:52,089 --> 00:34:49,700
campaign of harassment and abuse against

889
00:34:54,369 --> 00:34:52,099
a lennox head family whose four week old

890
00:34:55,990 --> 00:34:54,379
daughter died from whooping cough the

891
00:34:58,029 --> 00:34:56,000
little girl incidentally hadn't been

892
00:35:00,130 --> 00:34:58,039
vaccinated when she died because she was

893
00:35:01,870 --> 00:35:00,140
too young now look you can argue the

894
00:35:03,940 --> 00:35:01,880
case for and against vaccinations I

895
00:35:06,460 --> 00:35:03,950
happen to believe in it but that's not

896
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:06,470
the point the point is this group the

897
00:35:12,099 --> 00:35:09,410
avian it calls itself accused Tony and

898
00:35:14,230 --> 00:35:12,109
David McCaffrey of lying about the cause

899
00:35:15,910 --> 00:35:14,240
of their daughter's death this is the

900
00:35:17,740 --> 00:35:15,920
group that tried to get the baby's

901
00:35:19,779 --> 00:35:17,750
medical records without permission

902
00:35:22,089 --> 00:35:19,789
this is the group that says whooping

903
00:35:23,980 --> 00:35:22,099
cough is not fatal and vaccinations are

904
00:35:26,230 --> 00:35:23,990
not needed that claims the meningococcal

905
00:35:29,019 --> 00:35:26,240
disease is harmless and hardly kills

906
00:35:30,670 --> 00:35:29,029
anyone that vaccination vaccination is

907
00:35:33,609 --> 00:35:30,680
spreading aids in third world countries

908
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:33,619
and that vaccines listen to this one

909
00:35:39,810 --> 00:35:36,170
vaccines are part of a global conspiracy

910
00:35:42,690 --> 00:35:39,820
to implant mind-control chips

911
00:35:45,300 --> 00:35:42,700
to every man woman and child but

912
00:35:47,370 --> 00:35:45,310
overriding all of this is the fact that

913
00:35:50,550 --> 00:35:47,380
this group thinks that they can harass

914
00:35:52,410 --> 00:35:50,560
abuse and threaten people who take an

915
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:52,420
opposing view to theirs now I don't know

916
00:35:55,410 --> 00:35:53,770
whether you've ever heard of this group

917
00:35:57,780 --> 00:35:55,420
whether you've been in a similar

918
00:35:59,730 --> 00:35:57,790
situation to the McCaffrey's if you have

919
00:36:02,520 --> 00:35:59,740
I'd like to hear from you this morning

920
00:36:03,270 --> 00:36:02,530
on thirteen thirteen thirty-two these

921
00:36:05,190 --> 00:36:03,280
people

922
00:36:07,830 --> 00:36:05,200
the Australian vaccination Network

923
00:36:10,020 --> 00:36:07,840
they're an organization that should

924
00:36:12,570 --> 00:36:10,030
because it they are a threat to public

925
00:36:15,630 --> 00:36:12,580
health and safety they should be closed

926
00:36:17,340 --> 00:36:15,640
down now on the line is Ken MacLeod he

927
00:36:19,890 --> 00:36:17,350
is a member of a group that wants

928
00:36:22,470 --> 00:36:19,900
precisely that he's calling his

929
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:22,480
organization the stop the Australian

930
00:36:28,530 --> 00:36:24,490
vaccination Network Ken MacLeod good

931
00:36:30,390 --> 00:36:28,540
morning to you watch what's your

932
00:36:33,930 --> 00:36:30,400
interest in shutting this group down

933
00:36:36,450 --> 00:36:33,940
specifically my interest is that that

934
00:36:39,540 --> 00:36:36,460
the avian and as president meant

935
00:36:41,970 --> 00:36:39,550
officially a danger to public health and

936
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:41,980
it is incumbent upon government to

937
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:44,770
counter any danger to public health and

938
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:47,050
perhaps this is something government

939
00:36:51,810 --> 00:36:49,690
should be doing okay now we'll come to

940
00:36:54,030 --> 00:36:51,820
what government can or can't will or

941
00:36:56,670 --> 00:36:54,040
won't do in a moment but the reality is

942
00:36:58,620 --> 00:36:56,680
can you shut the ABN down given that

943
00:37:01,230 --> 00:36:58,630
these days it can still spread it's

944
00:37:03,300 --> 00:37:01,240
misinformation via the Internet that's

945
00:37:05,910 --> 00:37:03,310
right it isn't it is an issue of

946
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:05,920
practicality and it is an issue of free

947
00:37:13,620 --> 00:37:10,090
speech I did ask the H Triple C to

948
00:37:15,810 --> 00:37:13,630
consider that but the legislation does

949
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:15,820
not exist for the healthcare Complaints

950
00:37:20,460 --> 00:37:18,490
Commission to do that the most of health

951
00:37:23,700 --> 00:37:20,470
healthcare Complaints Commission can do

952
00:37:26,490 --> 00:37:23,710
is issue a public warning I'm also

953
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:26,500
suggesting that the H Triple C consider

954
00:37:31,170 --> 00:37:28,810
taking out an injunction where they

955
00:37:33,930 --> 00:37:31,180
would where the court would compel the

956
00:37:35,460 --> 00:37:33,940
ABN to put disclaimers prominently on

957
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:35,470
their website to say that their

958
00:37:41,100 --> 00:37:38,290
information is misleading so Ken who is

959
00:37:43,260 --> 00:37:41,110
this Merrill Dorie or Dorie or whatever

960
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:43,270
who runs this network out of Bangalow

961
00:37:47,970 --> 00:37:45,490
well I've never met her personally and

962
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:47,980
but I've seen a lot of her writings and

963
00:37:52,730 --> 00:37:51,210
appearances on television and radio

964
00:37:55,790 --> 00:37:52,740
american-born sit

965
00:37:58,510 --> 00:37:55,800
that for some reason has taken upon

966
00:38:01,910 --> 00:37:58,520
herself to combat vaccinations as a

967
00:38:05,930 --> 00:38:01,920
principal everywhere she goes through

968
00:38:08,660 --> 00:38:05,940
magazines seminars lobbying politicians

969
00:38:11,570 --> 00:38:08,670
and so on to me it's all quite bizarre

970
00:38:13,670 --> 00:38:11,580
that anyone would question vaccination

971
00:38:15,890 --> 00:38:13,680
in this day and age but there you are

972
00:38:18,290 --> 00:38:15,900
well in the as I said in introducing you

973
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:18,300
I mean in one sense you put the

974
00:38:23,420 --> 00:38:20,490
vaccination debate to one side the thing

975
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:23,430
that really irks me is that they would

976
00:38:29,690 --> 00:38:26,970
dare harass this family under the the

977
00:38:31,730 --> 00:38:29,700
McCaffrey's at Lenox head that they

978
00:38:33,980 --> 00:38:31,740
would dare harass them in the manner in

979
00:38:37,460 --> 00:38:33,990
which they have in the circumstances

980
00:38:39,410 --> 00:38:37,470
yeah that was probably what prompted me

981
00:38:40,940 --> 00:38:39,420
most to put in my complaint to the

982
00:38:44,359 --> 00:38:40,950
healthcare Complaints Commission I

983
00:38:47,359 --> 00:38:44,369
thought that the adn had gone one step

984
00:38:50,030 --> 00:38:47,369
too far I mean it's all very well to to

985
00:38:52,370 --> 00:38:50,040
question the science and to raise

986
00:38:54,710 --> 00:38:52,380
concerns and so on as long as you do it

987
00:38:56,750 --> 00:38:54,720
honestly but to harass a family in that

988
00:38:58,460 --> 00:38:56,760
way as I saw on television it's

989
00:39:00,859 --> 00:38:58,470
appalling behavior anecdotally

990
00:39:04,099 --> 00:39:00,869
unacceptable totally despicable and I

991
00:39:06,620 --> 00:39:04,109
thought something had to be done in this

992
00:39:08,900 --> 00:39:06,630
report from ABC's world today program

993
00:39:11,060 --> 00:39:08,910
Meryl claims she's not going to place

994
00:39:13,970 --> 00:39:11,070
the H Triple C disclaimer on her website

995
00:39:18,730 --> 00:39:13,980
because she is quote not anti

996
00:39:24,470 --> 00:39:22,370
me she then goes on to say that she's a

997
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:24,480
health watchdog well if you're a health

998
00:39:28,070 --> 00:39:26,490
watchdog Meryl I think you come under

999
00:39:29,810 --> 00:39:28,080
the jurisdiction of the healthcare

1000
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:29,820
Complaints Commission the New South

1001
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:31,890
Wales healthcare Complaints Commission

1002
00:39:36,650 --> 00:39:34,290
has taken the unusual step of issuing a

1003
00:39:39,170 --> 00:39:36,660
safety warning against a group of anti

1004
00:39:40,820 --> 00:39:39,180
vaccination campaigners the Commission

1005
00:39:43,220 --> 00:39:40,830
says the group known as the Australian

1006
00:39:45,140 --> 00:39:43,230
vaccination Network has refused to

1007
00:39:47,150 --> 00:39:45,150
include a prominent disclaimer on its

1008
00:39:50,030 --> 00:39:47,160
website stating the information should

1009
00:39:52,340 --> 00:39:50,040
not be taken as medical advice brahmand

1010
00:39:54,830 --> 00:39:52,350
herbert reports australia faced a

1011
00:39:57,230 --> 00:39:54,840
whooping cough epidemic last year more

1012
00:39:59,870 --> 00:39:57,240
than 19,000 cases were reported and

1013
00:40:02,000 --> 00:39:59,880
three babies died including four week

1014
00:40:04,430 --> 00:40:02,010
old Dana McCaffrey from the New South

1015
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:04,440
Wales North Coast pediatrician Chris

1016
00:40:09,170 --> 00:40:06,570
Engle treated the sick baby and

1017
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:09,180
since the Australian vaccination network

1018
00:40:14,270 --> 00:40:12,090
became active in the region immunization

1019
00:40:17,690 --> 00:40:14,280
rates have fallen dramatically they

1020
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:17,700
spook many young families into believing

1021
00:40:23,330 --> 00:40:21,210
them that vaccinations are bad that the

1022
00:40:24,350 --> 00:40:23,340
risk outweighs the benefit which is

1023
00:40:29,060 --> 00:40:24,360
quite wrong

1024
00:40:31,790 --> 00:40:29,070
ever since the AVN became active up here

1025
00:40:33,790 --> 00:40:31,800
the immunization rates of fall and we're

1026
00:40:38,030 --> 00:40:33,800
the lowest in the state we have pockets

1027
00:40:40,370 --> 00:40:38,040
below 50% vaccination it does of the

1028
00:40:43,070 --> 00:40:40,380
pockets where the pertussis outbreaks

1029
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:43,080
are seeded unfortunately it rolls out to

1030
00:40:48,650 --> 00:40:45,330
the entire community so everyone gets

1031
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:48,660
affected and we've seen that in ways

1032
00:40:53,870 --> 00:40:51,330
over the last two or three years in poor

1033
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:53,880
little Dana McAfee was caught up hanging

1034
00:40:57,200 --> 00:40:55,770
one of those ways the healthcare

1035
00:40:59,270 --> 00:40:57,210
Complaints Commission has been

1036
00:41:01,820 --> 00:40:59,280
investigating the network it's now

1037
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:01,830
issued a new public warning the

1038
00:41:05,210 --> 00:41:03,450
Commission recognizes that it is

1039
00:41:07,820 --> 00:41:05,220
important for there to be debate on the

1040
00:41:09,770 --> 00:41:07,830
issue of vaccination however the AVN

1041
00:41:12,860 --> 00:41:09,780
provides information that is inaccurate

1042
00:41:14,690 --> 00:41:12,870
and misleading the avians failure to

1043
00:41:16,850 --> 00:41:14,700
include a notice on its website of the

1044
00:41:18,770 --> 00:41:16,860
nature recommended by the Commission may

1045
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:18,780
result in members of the public making

1046
00:41:22,730 --> 00:41:20,970
improperly informed decisions about

1047
00:41:25,460 --> 00:41:22,740
whether or not to vaccinate and

1048
00:41:26,570 --> 00:41:25,470
therefore poses a risk to public health

1049
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:26,580
and safety

1050
00:41:30,980 --> 00:41:28,290
the Australian vaccination Network

1051
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:30,990
spokeswoman is Meryl Dorie we already

1052
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:33,450
had two of the three items that the

1053
00:41:37,010 --> 00:41:35,130
healthcare Complaints Commission asked

1054
00:41:39,590 --> 00:41:37,020
us to put up on the website and we'd had

1055
00:41:42,410 --> 00:41:39,600
these things up there for years the only

1056
00:41:44,210 --> 00:41:42,420
thing that the AVN refuses to put up on

1057
00:41:47,870 --> 00:41:44,220
the website and we do refuse to put it

1058
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:47,880
up and surely this is censorship and

1059
00:41:52,310 --> 00:41:50,130
it's at its highest level to insist that

1060
00:41:54,050 --> 00:41:52,320
we put this up the healthcare complains

1061
00:41:56,690 --> 00:41:54,060
Commission wants us to state that we are

1062
00:41:59,390 --> 00:41:56,700
anti vaccination and we are not never

1063
00:42:01,520 --> 00:41:59,400
have been anti vaccination we are pro

1064
00:42:04,790 --> 00:42:01,530
information pro-choice and a health

1065
00:42:07,370 --> 00:42:04,800
safety watchdog so you do advocate that

1066
00:42:09,410 --> 00:42:07,380
vaccinations should be taken when it is

1067
00:42:11,750 --> 00:42:09,420
appropriate you know we advocate that

1068
00:42:13,970 --> 00:42:11,760
people make informed decisions when it

1069
00:42:15,830 --> 00:42:13,980
comes to all medical issues including

1070
00:42:18,350 --> 00:42:15,840
vaccination and that's all we say

1071
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:18,360
Merrill Dorie says since the AVN is in

1072
00:42:25,330 --> 00:42:18,530
the

1073
00:42:28,900 --> 00:42:25,340
Commission's jurisdiction to investigate

1074
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:28,910
the group Raman Herbert so Meryl Dory

1075
00:42:33,610 --> 00:42:31,010
says that neither herself nor the AVN

1076
00:42:35,820 --> 00:42:33,620
are health educators but according to

1077
00:42:39,460 --> 00:42:35,830
the final report from the H Triple C

1078
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:39,470
quote miss dory speaks on the subject of

1079
00:42:44,590 --> 00:42:41,930
vaccinations on local radio and at a

1080
00:42:46,720 --> 00:42:44,600
number of different forums including The

1081
00:42:49,210 --> 00:42:46,730
Bachelor of naturopathy course conducted

1082
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:49,220
by Southern Cross University pregnancy

1083
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:51,530
discussion groups and the Woodford Folk

1084
00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:55,130
Festival unquote and it was at the

1085
00:42:58,690 --> 00:42:56,930
Woodford Folk Festival where she was

1086
00:43:02,740 --> 00:42:58,700
referred to as Australia's leading

1087
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:02,750
expert on vaccinations next up is John

1088
00:43:07,450 --> 00:43:05,170
and sandy from - you eat breakfast radio

1089
00:43:08,980 --> 00:43:07,460
now we as a country we have a pretty

1090
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:08,990
impressive record when it comes to

1091
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:10,610
childhood vaccinations I think around

1092
00:43:14,170 --> 00:43:12,770
90% of kids in this country are

1093
00:43:16,270 --> 00:43:14,180
vaccinated but there are still some

1094
00:43:18,490 --> 00:43:16,280
people out there who are vehemently

1095
00:43:20,110 --> 00:43:18,500
opposed to vaccinating children and

1096
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:20,120
they're usually headed up by a body

1097
00:43:24,550 --> 00:43:21,890
called the Australian vaccination

1098
00:43:27,100 --> 00:43:24,560
Network and it's been long conducting a

1099
00:43:29,170 --> 00:43:27,110
long-running campaign trying to dissuade

1100
00:43:30,340 --> 00:43:29,180
parents from having their kids immunized

1101
00:43:32,050 --> 00:43:30,350
so it's a it's a controversial

1102
00:43:34,330 --> 00:43:32,060
organization it's long been criticized

1103
00:43:36,820 --> 00:43:34,340
for circulating misinformation about the

1104
00:43:38,830 --> 00:43:36,830
risks of vaccination vaccination is a is

1105
00:43:40,540 --> 00:43:38,840
a personal thing a lot of people feel

1106
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:40,550
very very strongly about it either one

1107
00:43:45,340 --> 00:43:42,410
way or the other but the Australian

1108
00:43:47,470 --> 00:43:45,350
vaccination Network is not afraid to put

1109
00:43:49,510 --> 00:43:47,480
its views out there in indeed there's a

1110
00:43:54,730 --> 00:43:49,520
story today and it's one that would make

1111
00:43:57,370 --> 00:43:54,740
you just weep a four week old baby Donna

1112
00:43:59,830 --> 00:43:57,380
died from whooping cough Tony and David

1113
00:44:02,470 --> 00:43:59,840
McCaffrey the parents in the aftermath

1114
00:44:04,870 --> 00:44:02,480
of losing a four week old who had

1115
00:44:07,180 --> 00:44:04,880
whooping cough were we're trying to come

1116
00:44:09,460 --> 00:44:07,190
to terms with it all and suddenly found

1117
00:44:12,580 --> 00:44:09,470
themselves with with with contacts

1118
00:44:14,410 --> 00:44:12,590
emails nasty stuff coming to them from

1119
00:44:16,150 --> 00:44:14,420
Miss Australian vaccinations Network I

1120
00:44:18,070 --> 00:44:16,160
can't believe it this is harassment the

1121
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:18,080
network going to harass a couple who've

1122
00:44:22,210 --> 00:44:20,210
lost a full week old baby the mother of

1123
00:44:24,300 --> 00:44:22,220
the baby is Tony McCaffrey and she joins

1124
00:44:26,950 --> 00:44:24,310
us on the line now good morning to you I

1125
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:26,960
suppose for for anyone the thought of

1126
00:44:31,270 --> 00:44:29,210
losing a baby at four weeks is is just

1127
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:31,280
so tragic you can't even think about it

1128
00:44:33,970 --> 00:44:31,970
but then

1129
00:44:36,099 --> 00:44:33,980
they have a campaign such as we've

1130
00:44:38,950 --> 00:44:36,109
touched on it must have been shattering

1131
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:38,960
for you look we were just in absolute

1132
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:42,770
shock when Dana died the greatest

1133
00:44:46,450 --> 00:44:44,330
heartbreak is that no one warned us

1134
00:44:48,430 --> 00:44:46,460
about whooping cough there was no

1135
00:44:51,910 --> 00:44:48,440
warning sticker on her health records

1136
00:44:54,250 --> 00:44:51,920
and Dana was the third baby airlifted

1137
00:44:55,359 --> 00:44:54,260
from this area to intensive care and to

1138
00:44:56,770 --> 00:44:55,369
the week after

1139
00:45:00,400 --> 00:44:56,780
there was a very dangerous environment

1140
00:45:03,190 --> 00:45:00,410
so that's why we went public but we was

1141
00:45:04,839 --> 00:45:03,200
even more shocked within three weeks and

1142
00:45:08,740 --> 00:45:04,849
we started getting anonymous letters to

1143
00:45:11,859 --> 00:45:08,750
our home started getting emails and just

1144
00:45:14,310 --> 00:45:11,869
think that thing the I guess the vitriol

1145
00:45:16,870 --> 00:45:14,320
and lunacy that surrounds this issue

1146
00:45:17,980 --> 00:45:16,880
she was she was too young to be

1147
00:45:19,660 --> 00:45:17,990
immunized wasn't she

1148
00:45:21,849 --> 00:45:19,670
that's right there's only four weeks old

1149
00:45:23,859 --> 00:45:21,859
so when Dana started exhibiting any

1150
00:45:25,570 --> 00:45:23,869
symptoms and what I mean by symptom is

1151
00:45:27,820 --> 00:45:25,580
she had a blocked nose and she was

1152
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:27,830
snuffly and a bit unsettled at night

1153
00:45:32,770 --> 00:45:29,930
which most newborns are that was bit

1154
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:32,780
about two weeks of ages she didn't have

1155
00:45:37,210 --> 00:45:35,690
the first coughs until about the day

1156
00:45:39,150 --> 00:45:37,220
before we went in the hospital it was

1157
00:45:41,950 --> 00:45:39,160
just as like a clearing of the throat

1158
00:45:44,230 --> 00:45:41,960
hey Dana didn't have what they call her

1159
00:45:46,210 --> 00:45:44,240
coughing paroxysm until 10 minutes after

1160
00:45:47,670 --> 00:45:46,220
we arrived at hospital so we walked in

1161
00:45:49,660 --> 00:45:47,680
the door said here's our daughter we

1162
00:45:52,300 --> 00:45:49,670
she's just been diagnosed with whooping

1163
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:52,310
cough at which point she coughed for

1164
00:45:56,620 --> 00:45:55,010
about an eternity it felt like went blue

1165
00:45:58,420 --> 00:45:56,630
and passed out had to be put on oxygen

1166
00:46:01,599 --> 00:45:58,430
and that's how we learned about whooping

1167
00:46:03,430 --> 00:46:01,609
cough yeah and your concern from what I

1168
00:46:05,500 --> 00:46:03,440
gather is that you were concerned about

1169
00:46:08,290 --> 00:46:05,510
the care that was given how much

1170
00:46:10,089 --> 00:46:08,300
information you were given and what the

1171
00:46:12,820 --> 00:46:10,099
duty of care from the health system was

1172
00:46:14,710 --> 00:46:12,830
you then talked about it and found this

1173
00:46:17,010 --> 00:46:14,720
other stuff coming to you from people

1174
00:46:18,870 --> 00:46:17,020
who were saying that whooping cough

1175
00:46:22,210 --> 00:46:18,880
shouldn't be fatal

1176
00:46:25,060 --> 00:46:22,220
absolutely the whole reason we went

1177
00:46:26,650 --> 00:46:25,070
public it's because the week that Dana

1178
00:46:28,690 --> 00:46:26,660
died the day after she died you said

1179
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:28,700
well tell us if they could confirm her

1180
00:46:33,430 --> 00:46:30,530
death in a media release and we allowed

1181
00:46:35,859 --> 00:46:33,440
that to happen anonymously because at

1182
00:46:37,270 --> 00:46:35,869
the same time they were releasing free

1183
00:46:38,740 --> 00:46:37,280
boosters when your parents and

1184
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:38,750
grandparents and that meant so much to

1185
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:41,810
us because no one had told us I mean if

1186
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:44,210
I had have had someone had warned me

1187
00:46:48,060 --> 00:46:45,970
that the rates of infection up here

1188
00:46:51,180 --> 00:46:48,070
five times but they really you before

1189
00:46:54,900 --> 00:46:51,190
yet not one health professional told us

1190
00:46:58,820 --> 00:46:54,910
that's why we went public but then to

1191
00:47:01,109 --> 00:46:58,830
see all this other stuff coming out and

1192
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:01,119
contentions that Dana didn't even die of

1193
00:47:08,849 --> 00:47:06,130
pertussis it was her medical care or the

1194
00:47:11,430 --> 00:47:08,859
fact that I saw rumors circulating that

1195
00:47:12,900 --> 00:47:11,440
she was weak from birth I was sensitive

1196
00:47:14,070 --> 00:47:12,910
so so they were they were sending you

1197
00:47:15,540 --> 00:47:14,080
stuff saying it was all a conspiracy

1198
00:47:16,830 --> 00:47:15,550
though using whooping cough as a

1199
00:47:19,290 --> 00:47:16,840
cover-up because it suited their

1200
00:47:21,630 --> 00:47:19,300
argument against vaccination it even

1201
00:47:23,490 --> 00:47:21,640
went so far as Meryl Dory ringing um

1202
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:23,500
this is the head of his network that's

1203
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:24,010
correct

1204
00:47:27,750 --> 00:47:26,170
ringing Paul Corbin the Director of

1205
00:47:29,550 --> 00:47:27,760
Public Health the day before Dana's

1206
00:47:32,460 --> 00:47:29,560
funeral the twelve marks

1207
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:32,470
speaking of her medical records wanting

1208
00:47:39,300 --> 00:47:35,290
to know how the test was may contending

1209
00:47:41,820 --> 00:47:39,310
that it's that there was no I guess

1210
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:41,830
confirmation of that test and that the

1211
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:44,770
government was misleading the public in

1212
00:47:49,290 --> 00:47:47,170
attributing for this to pertussis and

1213
00:47:50,940 --> 00:47:49,300
therefore tricking people into exercise

1214
00:47:53,970 --> 00:47:50,950
but no right to ask for your daughter's

1215
00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:53,980
records absolutely not yet she'll say

1216
00:47:59,370 --> 00:47:56,170
now that we have no right to know that

1217
00:48:01,650 --> 00:47:59,380
she called up be keynotes record mmm

1218
00:48:03,030 --> 00:48:01,660
so did they start by was it message to

1219
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:03,040
your home is that how the campaign

1220
00:48:06,089 --> 00:48:04,810
started that's correct so when you've

1221
00:48:08,339 --> 00:48:06,099
opened the first letter you must have

1222
00:48:10,079 --> 00:48:08,349
just been a ghast well my husband was

1223
00:48:12,420 --> 00:48:10,089
the one that got it and it was an

1224
00:48:15,270 --> 00:48:12,430
anonymous type letter and he ripped it

1225
00:48:17,250 --> 00:48:15,280
up to two trillion bits and I tried to

1226
00:48:19,079 --> 00:48:17,260
piece it back together so just throw it

1227
00:48:21,180 --> 00:48:19,089
away we don't need to see that sort of

1228
00:48:23,070 --> 00:48:21,190
stuff I mean we had had other letters we

1229
00:48:24,420 --> 00:48:23,080
received one letter to our home that was

1230
00:48:26,460 --> 00:48:24,430
addressed to the parents of the baby

1231
00:48:29,220 --> 00:48:26,470
that had died of whooping cough and it

1232
00:48:32,430 --> 00:48:29,230
got to it within about another two weeks

1233
00:48:35,670 --> 00:48:32,440
afterwards we received another anonymous

1234
00:48:37,740 --> 00:48:35,680
letter to our home st. and writing with

1235
00:48:39,720 --> 00:48:37,750
an avian brochure and then we got

1236
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:39,730
another one a month afterwards it it

1237
00:48:43,859 --> 00:48:41,890
petered out in about June last year

1238
00:48:46,770 --> 00:48:43,869
because we had been on that channel

1239
00:48:49,170 --> 00:48:46,780
seven show Sunday night and I guess

1240
00:48:52,050 --> 00:48:49,180
they've been outed and the emails are

1241
00:48:54,930 --> 00:48:52,060
coming as well but the nature of the

1242
00:48:58,470 --> 00:48:54,940
email as well were quite quite bizarre

1243
00:48:59,340 --> 00:48:58,480
stuff to the point of some very extreme

1244
00:49:01,260 --> 00:48:59,350
and

1245
00:49:03,210 --> 00:49:01,270
others are seeing a lot of questions you

1246
00:49:05,610 --> 00:49:03,220
know where we saw that that's what it

1247
00:49:07,950 --> 00:49:05,620
called Dana's death and warning us not

1248
00:49:09,900 --> 00:49:07,960
to speak up in other words because they

1249
00:49:11,730 --> 00:49:09,910
thought we would harm more babies by

1250
00:49:14,670 --> 00:49:11,740
speaking up for promoting vaccinations

1251
00:49:16,050 --> 00:49:14,680
and morning pinky I mean the health care

1252
00:49:17,550 --> 00:49:16,060
compliance Commission's described this

1253
00:49:19,710 --> 00:49:17,560
outfit as a serious threat to public

1254
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:19,720
health you're probably like me I can't

1255
00:49:23,190 --> 00:49:20,770
understand why they haven't just shut it

1256
00:49:26,070 --> 00:49:23,200
down I I don't have to stand a lot of

1257
00:49:28,500 --> 00:49:26,080
things in the last year I um I don't

1258
00:49:31,980 --> 00:49:28,510
understand how people can treat another

1259
00:49:34,950 --> 00:49:31,990
person this way and I I'm also advocacy

1260
00:49:36,990 --> 00:49:34,960
for all these and also choice and I

1261
00:49:38,490 --> 00:49:37,000
think the fact is there's a lot of

1262
00:49:41,340 --> 00:49:38,500
parents out there who are concerned

1263
00:49:43,500 --> 00:49:41,350
about vaccinations and they want factual

1264
00:49:45,380 --> 00:49:43,510
information on what the risks and

1265
00:49:47,460 --> 00:49:45,390
benefits are and I fully support that

1266
00:49:49,290 --> 00:49:47,470
and the whole reason we made the

1267
00:49:51,570 --> 00:49:49,300
complaint was yes all this harassment

1268
00:49:54,150 --> 00:49:51,580
hurt we knew the hey Triple C had no

1269
00:49:57,360 --> 00:49:54,160
jurisdiction over its what concerned us

1270
00:49:58,710 --> 00:49:57,370
nor was that by contending that Dana did

1271
00:50:00,240 --> 00:49:58,720
dive do you think off that it may

1272
00:50:02,700 --> 00:50:00,250
mislead a parent to think it's not

1273
00:50:05,220 --> 00:50:02,710
dangerous and it is one in 200 babies

1274
00:50:06,630 --> 00:50:05,230
that catches disease will die you know

1275
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:06,640
it's one of the top 10 killers in the

1276
00:50:12,180 --> 00:50:09,010
world and for those babies that survive

1277
00:50:14,730 --> 00:50:12,190
their poor parents put up you know would

1278
00:50:17,070 --> 00:50:14,740
have three months of hell at home with

1279
00:50:19,020 --> 00:50:17,080
oxygen missing any night if the baby has

1280
00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:19,030
an attack you know mrs. McAfee I think

1281
00:50:23,070 --> 00:50:20,530
you're so courageous to have done that

1282
00:50:24,900 --> 00:50:23,080
publicly and I mean it's nothing I can

1283
00:50:26,190 --> 00:50:24,910
do about it but I'm so sorry you had to

1284
00:50:27,390 --> 00:50:26,200
go through what you went through after

1285
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:27,400
your daughter died and I just think you

1286
00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:31,810
you you're just terrific I think I guess

1287
00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:34,530
the main thing of all of it de-stresses

1288
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:37,210
paris-nice exterminated information you

1289
00:50:41,940 --> 00:50:40,450
and all we'd like to say we had three

1290
00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:41,950
consecutive years ever of Health

1291
00:50:45,900 --> 00:50:44,050
Minister and Nicola Roxon last year say

1292
00:50:48,300 --> 00:50:45,910
they would put out a campaign in

1293
00:50:50,010 --> 00:50:48,310
December last year it still hasn't

1294
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:50,020
happened you stuff ourselves are ready

1295
00:50:53,370 --> 00:50:50,650
to go

1296
00:50:55,290 --> 00:50:53,380
the feds told them to wait and I just

1297
00:50:57,450 --> 00:50:55,300
think it's just so sad that we have to

1298
00:50:59,640 --> 00:50:57,460
keep putting ourselves out there to

1299
00:51:00,930 --> 00:50:59,650
raise awareness of this issue and that

1300
00:51:03,240 --> 00:51:00,940
if everyone was a little bit more

1301
00:51:04,620 --> 00:51:03,250
proactive we might have to clarify this

1302
00:51:07,470 --> 00:51:04,630
is the camp right on whooping cough is

1303
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:07,480
that right they agreed that all the

1304
00:51:12,020 --> 00:51:09,850
ministers got together at a national

1305
00:51:14,990 --> 00:51:12,030
conference twice last year

1306
00:51:16,310 --> 00:51:15,000
they launched a big review to education

1307
00:51:18,460 --> 00:51:16,320
and Prevention and now going to launch

1308
00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:18,470
the national immunization strategy

1309
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:21,570
velocities so giving parents more

1310
00:51:26,860 --> 00:51:23,010
information and to fight the

1311
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:26,870
misinformation it was ready to go and

1312
00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:29,610
the federal Department of Health amazing

1313
00:51:34,700 --> 00:51:33,330
I try every way Ron thank you for

1314
00:51:35,870 --> 00:51:34,710
joining us this morning and you said

1315
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:35,880
putting yourself out there you have

1316
00:51:39,110 --> 00:51:37,170
again today and we thank you for that

1317
00:51:42,500 --> 00:51:39,120
okay I'd better go back and make those

1318
00:51:44,990 --> 00:51:42,510
very good school morning of course

1319
00:51:46,970 --> 00:51:45,000
that's Tony McCaffrey there she lost her

1320
00:51:49,070 --> 00:51:46,980
daughter of Dana last year and the

1321
00:51:50,450 --> 00:51:49,080
health care and complaints Commission's

1322
00:51:52,430 --> 00:51:50,460
actually issued a public warning about

1323
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:52,440
this outfit this Australian vaccination

1324
00:51:56,240 --> 00:51:54,330
Network and the person who runs the

1325
00:51:57,770 --> 00:51:56,250
network someone called Meryl Dory says

1326
00:51:59,120 --> 00:51:57,780
it's laughable she's seeking legal

1327
00:52:01,070 --> 00:51:59,130
advice I don't think she sounds like

1328
00:52:02,630 --> 00:52:01,080
she's laughable yep that's right and the

1329
00:52:04,220 --> 00:52:02,640
fact they hadn't started this education

1330
00:52:05,630 --> 00:52:04,230
campaign which would mean that there'd

1331
00:52:07,250 --> 00:52:05,640
be information for parents who haven't

1332
00:52:09,710 --> 00:52:07,260
got it and then turn to websites and get

1333
00:52:11,510 --> 00:52:09,720
that that's scandalous as well so in

1334
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:11,520
that interview you heard Tony McCaffrey

1335
00:52:15,470 --> 00:52:13,530
describing abusive correspondence that

1336
00:52:18,740 --> 00:52:15,480
her family had received from people

1337
00:52:21,020 --> 00:52:18,750
associated with the AVN in true meryl

1338
00:52:23,240 --> 00:52:21,030
dory style instead of keeping quiet and

1339
00:52:26,300 --> 00:52:23,250
retreating to the corner she has written

1340
00:52:29,450 --> 00:52:26,310
a blog post today entitled a grieving

1341
00:52:31,430 --> 00:52:29,460
family and baseless accusations Dorie

1342
00:52:33,710 --> 00:52:31,440
claims there is no evidence for the AVN

1343
00:52:35,690 --> 00:52:33,720
harassing the McCaffrey's and suggests

1344
00:52:38,230 --> 00:52:35,700
if they did indeed receive harassment it

1345
00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:38,240
might have come from the other side if

1346
00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:40,650
like me you think now would be a good

1347
00:52:44,300 --> 00:52:42,570
time to keep quiet and let the dust

1348
00:52:44,780 --> 00:52:44,310
settle then you wouldn't be Merrill

1349
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:44,790
Dorie

1350
00:52:50,540 --> 00:52:47,610
here she is responding to an interview

1351
00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:50,550
with Tony McCaffrey on six one two Radio

1352
00:52:55,790 --> 00:52:53,850
ABC Brisbane because I have Merrill Dori

1353
00:52:58,400 --> 00:52:55,800
from the Australian vaccination Network

1354
00:53:00,710 --> 00:52:58,410
with me to Merrill good morning good

1355
00:53:03,350 --> 00:53:00,720
morning what do you think Donna died off

1356
00:53:05,030 --> 00:53:03,360
I really don't know what Xena died of

1357
00:53:07,100 --> 00:53:05,040
today and do you have any right to be

1358
00:53:09,500 --> 00:53:07,110
requesting her medical certificates from

1359
00:53:09,980 --> 00:53:09,510
a health department the for parents bury

1360
00:53:14,030 --> 00:53:09,990
her

1361
00:53:17,780 --> 00:53:14,040
unfortunately mrs. McCaffrey is

1362
00:53:20,570 --> 00:53:17,790
incorrect there's what I did was when

1363
00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:20,580
mrs. McCaffrey agreed to go public in

1364
00:53:24,450 --> 00:53:22,770
our local newspaper the Northern Star

1365
00:53:26,610 --> 00:53:24,460
there was an article basic

1366
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:26,620
accusing people who had unvaccinated

1367
00:53:31,380 --> 00:53:29,290
children of killing Dana McCaffrey and

1368
00:53:33,660 --> 00:53:31,390
they said that Dana had been admitted to

1369
00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:33,670
hospital the previous week and was

1370
00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:35,410
diagnosed with whooping cough almost

1371
00:53:40,470 --> 00:53:38,290
immediately and was treated for that now

1372
00:53:43,380 --> 00:53:40,480
I knew at that point of time and know

1373
00:53:45,570 --> 00:53:43,390
now that the most effective test for

1374
00:53:48,120 --> 00:53:45,580
whooping cough is called a blood culture

1375
00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:48,130
and that takes ten to fourteen days to

1376
00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:50,770
get a result so my simple question was

1377
00:53:54,690 --> 00:53:53,050
while parents who have made an informed

1378
00:53:57,000 --> 00:53:54,700
decision not to vaccinate their children

1379
00:54:00,930 --> 00:53:57,010
were being accused of murdering a little

1380
00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:00,940
baby it was up to our organization as a

1381
00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:02,890
representative of these families to find

1382
00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:05,050
out how the test was done I did not

1383
00:54:09,690 --> 00:54:07,690
request medical records and I did not

1384
00:54:11,100 --> 00:54:09,700
contact the hospital is mrs. McCaffrey

1385
00:54:13,050 --> 00:54:11,110
displayed well the health care

1386
00:54:16,110 --> 00:54:13,060
Complaints Commission has brought down a

1387
00:54:18,570 --> 00:54:16,120
finding and it finds that your website

1388
00:54:20,910 --> 00:54:18,580
your group provides information that is

1389
00:54:22,950 --> 00:54:20,920
solely anti vaccination that's not

1390
00:54:24,690 --> 00:54:22,960
factual information then is it if it

1391
00:54:26,460 --> 00:54:24,700
only provides one sign healthcare

1392
00:54:28,410 --> 00:54:26,470
complaints condition first of all does

1393
00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:28,420
not have jurisdiction to investigate us

1394
00:54:32,700 --> 00:54:30,610
second of all we are an organization

1395
00:54:34,590 --> 00:54:32,710
that has been operating for 17 years are

1396
00:54:36,030 --> 00:54:34,600
you disputing their findings just please

1397
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:36,040
do me the courtesy of letting me finish

1398
00:54:40,890 --> 00:54:38,650
the sentence the healthcare Complaints

1399
00:54:43,950 --> 00:54:40,900
Commission investigated one page of our

1400
00:54:46,530 --> 00:54:43,960
website I provided them with a 66 page

1401
00:54:48,990 --> 00:54:46,540
response which they completely ignored I

1402
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:49,000
also provided them with information from

1403
00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:51,010
both the solicitor and a barrister to

1404
00:54:54,630 --> 00:54:52,210
say that they did not have jurisdiction

1405
00:54:57,240 --> 00:54:54,640
to investigate us the healthcare

1406
00:54:59,190 --> 00:54:57,250
Complaints Commission investigators said

1407
00:55:00,150 --> 00:54:59,200
to me that the health I needed to

1408
00:55:01,770 --> 00:55:00,160
understand that the healthcare

1409
00:55:04,650 --> 00:55:01,780
Complaints Commission was a government

1410
00:55:06,960 --> 00:55:04,660
department and as such they must support

1411
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:06,970
government policy which is probe axis so

1412
00:55:11,910 --> 00:55:08,770
you're going to change your website the

1413
00:55:14,820 --> 00:55:11,920
Commission says that you should do that

1414
00:55:16,590 --> 00:55:14,830
it's recommended it says that your

1415
00:55:18,780 --> 00:55:16,600
information is both inaccurate and

1416
00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:18,790
misleading are you going to change it in

1417
00:55:23,550 --> 00:55:21,130
any way we showed first of all we have

1418
00:55:25,680 --> 00:55:23,560
two disclaimers on the website and we

1419
00:55:26,910 --> 00:55:25,690
have them free and we've shown that to

1420
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:26,920
the Health Service but they've still

1421
00:55:30,990 --> 00:55:28,810
made this finding are you going to

1422
00:55:34,020 --> 00:55:31,000
change it in any way we are right now

1423
00:55:35,730 --> 00:55:34,030
seeking legal advice we do not feel that

1424
00:55:37,090 --> 00:55:35,740
any government department has the right

1425
00:55:39,070 --> 00:55:37,100
to censor no

1426
00:55:42,780 --> 00:55:39,080
a woman lost her child a families lost

1427
00:55:45,820 --> 00:55:42,790
their 4 week old baby to whooping cough

1428
00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:45,830
do you have anything to say to that mum

1429
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:48,410
who's listening well I said at the very

1430
00:55:52,420 --> 00:55:50,570
beginning that it was a tragic loss and

1431
00:55:53,950 --> 00:55:52,430
the death of any child is tragic but the

1432
00:55:56,980 --> 00:55:53,960
check the death of a child from a

1433
00:55:59,290 --> 00:55:56,990
vaccine reaction is also tragic why

1434
00:56:01,300 --> 00:55:59,300
aren't these families getting the media

1435
00:56:03,400 --> 00:56:01,310
coverage and the sympathy that the

1436
00:56:05,260 --> 00:56:03,410
McCaffrey's are getting all children are

1437
00:56:07,330 --> 00:56:05,270
important all deaths are important I

1438
00:56:09,310 --> 00:56:07,340
have never contacted the McCaffrey's I

1439
00:56:10,990 --> 00:56:09,320
never will contact them all right Meryl

1440
00:56:13,420 --> 00:56:11,000
Dorie Thank You Meryl Dory's from the

1441
00:56:15,070 --> 00:56:13,430
Estonian vaccination Network Meryl goes

1442
00:56:16,780 --> 00:56:15,080
into more detail about the claims in

1443
00:56:20,320 --> 00:56:16,790
this interview in her blog post from

1444
00:56:22,990 --> 00:56:20,330
today you can find it at ABN or GU and

1445
00:56:24,970 --> 00:56:23,000
look for the blog link the McCaffrey's

1446
00:56:27,160 --> 00:56:24,980
have since responded to her claims that

1447
00:56:28,780 --> 00:56:27,170
she did not harass them in a post which

1448
00:56:31,650 --> 00:56:28,790
has been published on the Facebook page

1449
00:56:34,420 --> 00:56:31,660
stop the Australian vaccination Network

1450
00:56:36,370 --> 00:56:34,430
when Tony McCaffrey refers to Meryl

1451
00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:36,380
saying Dana supposedly died of whooping

1452
00:56:40,570 --> 00:56:38,810
cough well it seems Meryl doesn't think

1453
00:56:43,450 --> 00:56:40,580
whooping coughs really that bad anyway

1454
00:56:47,170 --> 00:56:43,460
as she says so on channel 7 Sunday night

1455
00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:47,180
program in 2009 my mother used to put me

1456
00:56:50,140 --> 00:56:48,410
with all the neighborhood kids when they

1457
00:56:51,910 --> 00:56:50,150
got these diseases so I'd get them and

1458
00:56:54,520 --> 00:56:51,920
get them over with and be immune and

1459
00:56:56,020 --> 00:56:54,530
there was no fear there was no worry

1460
00:56:58,390 --> 00:56:56,030
about it we just got them we were

1461
00:57:01,300 --> 00:56:58,400
supposed to get them and we did and we

1462
00:57:03,040 --> 00:57:01,310
were healthier for them now we have a

1463
00:57:04,540 --> 00:57:03,050
medical community that's saying if you

1464
00:57:05,860 --> 00:57:04,550
get measles if you get whooping cough

1465
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:05,870
you're gonna die from it well where is

1466
00:57:09,520 --> 00:57:07,970
the information from that you didn't die

1467
00:57:12,430 --> 00:57:09,530
from it 30 years ago and you're not

1468
00:57:14,500 --> 00:57:12,440
gonna die from it today and finally

1469
00:57:16,300 --> 00:57:14,510
here's an excerpt from the Steve Canaan

1470
00:57:18,430 --> 00:57:16,310
Lateline interview which kicked off the

1471
00:57:21,010 --> 00:57:18,440
media coverage of the H Triple C report

1472
00:57:22,540 --> 00:57:21,020
where he catches Merrill Dory out for

1473
00:57:25,330 --> 00:57:22,550
saying something she didn't think she

1474
00:57:27,970 --> 00:57:25,340
said and until next time this has been

1475
00:57:29,470 --> 00:57:27,980
dr. Rachel reports okay there is a post

1476
00:57:31,450 --> 00:57:29,480
that you made in reference to the

1477
00:57:33,700 --> 00:57:31,460
skeptics which said isn't it incredible

1478
00:57:35,410 --> 00:57:33,710
how they have made Dana into a martyr

1479
00:57:38,170 --> 00:57:35,420
because she supposedly died from

1480
00:57:47,540 --> 00:57:38,180
whooping cough did I say that yeah I

1481
00:57:52,430 --> 00:57:50,430
but ignore all of the children and

1482
00:57:55,440 --> 00:57:52,440
adults who have died after vaccination

1483
00:57:58,980 --> 00:57:55,450
said that III did say that and I still

1484
00:58:01,080 --> 00:57:58,990
think that I could you imagine rating

1485
00:58:02,820 --> 00:58:01,090
that if your daughter had died of who'd

1486
00:58:05,400 --> 00:58:02,830
be helpful how would that make you feel

1487
00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:05,410
can you imagine reading they stopped the

1488
00:58:11,880 --> 00:58:10,330
AVN site for the same that's fine that's

1489
00:58:13,860 --> 00:58:11,890
fine and you imagine reading those

1490
00:58:15,900 --> 00:58:13,870
comments I can imagine and it would

1491
00:58:20,320 --> 00:58:15,910
probably be hurtful and I would be sorry

1492
00:58:39,510 --> 00:58:20,330
if she felt hurt from what I had said

1493
00:58:44,920 --> 00:58:42,220
thank you for listening to the skeptics

1494
00:58:46,269 --> 00:58:44,930
are now next week now let me see I've

1495
00:58:49,000 --> 00:58:46,279
got quite a selection of interviews to

1496
00:58:51,670 --> 00:58:49,010
bring to you I might very well bring you

1497
00:58:55,059 --> 00:58:51,680
the interview I did with maybe Phil

1498
00:58:57,880 --> 00:58:55,069
Plait the bad astronomer maybe we'll see

1499
00:59:00,430 --> 00:58:57,890
we'll see it's a good interview actually

1500
00:59:03,190 --> 00:59:00,440
it's a rate you like interviewing Phil

1501
00:59:07,120 --> 00:59:03,200
Plait hmm I think that might be well

1502
00:59:09,099 --> 00:59:07,130
worth it until then thank you once again

1503
00:59:12,010 --> 00:59:09,109
this is Richard Saunders signing off

1504
00:59:14,769 --> 00:59:12,020
that [\h__\h] martini was nice can I have

1505
00:59:16,630 --> 00:59:14,779
another one yeah this is Richard

1506
00:59:21,849 --> 00:59:16,640
Saunders signing off from Sydney

1507
00:59:24,930 --> 00:59:21,859
Australia you've been listening to the

1508
00:59:31,160 --> 00:59:24,940
skeptic zone visit our web site at